Windmill Lakes Winter 4-Man Scramble Results

Windmill Lakes GC, Ravenna, Ohio Sunday Nov. 8, 2009

PLACE               TEAM CAPTAIN     SCORE         PAYOUT
1ST PLACE        Todd Cravens (pro Chad Collins)        -18        $4,000
T-2 PLACE        Jon Mills        -15        $1,750
T-2 PLACE        Tim Ailes        -15        $1,750
T-4 PLACE        Larry Manski        -14        $250
T-4 PLACE        Rob Wakeling        -14        $250

SKINS (1): Aaron Czetli  –  Eagle (3) Hole #4 Par 5  =  $2,000


  1. Avatar
    December 24, 2009

    We’ve all played in scrambles where we’ve suspected (almost certain about it) that rampant cheating is involved. For me and the guys I play with, it’s completely unthinkable. But as hard as it is to believe for those of us who honor the game, it does happen.

    Some thoughts…
    “¢ If you go into a tournament that specifies “one pro”, where do you draw the line? Is it not okay for Chad Collins to play, but okay for Gary Trivisonno? And if it’s not okay for Trivisonno to play, is it okay for Mike Bittner to play? Where do you draw the line?

    A couple of thoughts…
    “¢ The tournament director should have a serious discussion at the start of tournament warning about cheating. It’s never mentioned.
    “¢ If cheaters are caught, a list should be circulated at posted at area golf courses. The tournament could have the option of disallowing those players.

  2. Avatar
    November 20, 2009

    What can I say? These kinds of things can happen, but it’s rare when it’s on this level. I did not play in the Windmill event, but I do have a couple comments about it:

    – While I absolutely understand letting section pros play in these types of events (as they will be the first to admit they are not on the same level with touring pros), I have no idea why any tournament director would allow any Nationwide, PGA, or mini tour pro to compete in these types of events.

    Most of us have day jobs, some in and some out of the golf business. Playing and competing in top notch golf tournaments is their job. These guys already have 50 events they can compete in for big money. They do NOT belong in these types of scrambles, and regardless what the possibilities may be, I wouldn’t waste so much as a penny on an event where my team is competing against a team with a tour professional. Heath Slocum, White pants Overton, Mills, Collins, etc. I don’t care who it is. If we can’t play on their tour, they shouldn’t be able to play on our level of events.

    – As for the long drive guys, while I think it can be a big advantage to have one on your team, unless these types of guys competed on a tour level, you’ve gotta let “˜em play.

    – With two groups playing together in each group, players should be the ones policing themselves. If no issues are brought up on the course or at least by the time both cards are signed and turned in, then don’t waste our time or yours bringing it up afterward. Take care of it on the course or in the clubhouse (or perhaps the parking lot) and get it resolved right then and there.

    – Plus, rather than having 18 volunteers to police the course, why not have 5 or 6 of them on your target holes. You know – the holes where issues are most likely to occur. This includes the obvious skins holes (par 5’s, drivable par 4’s) and holes involving prizes. A max of 7 or 8 volunteers would be needed, and by offering them a free round of golf or two to some of your course’s regulars, you would ensure that cheating will be kept to a minimum.

    – Remember, it’s November. $35 per golfer at Windmill is still pretty damn good from a golf course revenue standpoint, even factoring cart/food. How much would they have made had they not had this event? And how much less buzz would have been created if no such event were played there? Let’s face it ““ good golfers know Windmill is a good course that has good events, and they know where to find other good events at other area courses. I don’t care what course you’re playing. It’s November, $35 per golfer is a nice bonus.

    – Also, I can understand someone thinking the GolfTec team had a couple pros playing on the same team. Bill Bergold used to be a pro, but he re-established his amateur status after leaving the golf biz a few years ago. I played some junior golf w/ him back in the day. He’s a good guy and he wouldn’t cheat.

  3. Avatar
    November 20, 2009

    WOW, nonsense, too much of it. No idea who Masso is, but he obviously has an agenda and is going to make sure he is well heard. Dude, you lost, get over it. I know it sucks, but as someone earlier stated, it is the nature of gambling… And to Mr. Freeman, thanks for everything you do for NEO Amateur Golf. This site and all its listings is very helpful to all of us!!

  4. Avatar
    November 20, 2009

    “Hey, they could have moved the ball before Nick got over there. Who cares? Nick was a gentleman, and I’m sure he’s a good representative of the game. We all went on the website, and the guys all fit the pics. They didn’t win anything anyway. Moot point”


    not a moot point, your accusing someone of cheating! I was in that group and i am an amatuer and i dont appreciate the accusations! matt, ryan and myself are amatuers and NONE of us ressemble any of the pros at golftec.

    Nick was the first guy there, he road with ryan and it was his tee shot. Matt and i went and got our balls that were on the right side. when ryan and nick called us over because we had a shot. you guys never came over and have no clue what are shot was like. it was a simple shot 9/pw over a tree. your accusations are false and unfounded.

    i also find this amusing considering the fact that you were telling us that our two footer on the first hole was good. we told you that the rules state the ball must hit the bottom of the hole and we marked and putted out regardless of what you said.

  5. Avatar
    November 19, 2009

    Tim…I’m sorry but steve and I have seen you play and we aren’t capable of beating you let alone if you have a partner…in regards to the ladies its not a question of if I’m gonna strike out but how many times!

  6. Avatar
    November 19, 2009

    Just read Larry’s comment- that was the funniest thing I read in a while, or at least since my last 401k statement.

    Aurora Golf Club is in PHENOM shape. Played out there several times in past few days. Let’s get a Turkey scramble together.

  7. Avatar
    November 19, 2009

    I thought Kemble was at Windmill…not Cebula…

  8. Avatar
    November 19, 2009

    I have been reading and following these posts for the past week and have benn very amused. A couple of thoughts from one of the best Amateur players in the area(me):
    The team I played on had a pro in name only and played like a 12 handicap! We had another guy who could bomb the ball 350 into the woods and our third played dressed and looked like Stuart Appleby. We clearly didn’t have a chance with only 1 great player(me) on the team.

    Memo to Masso: Those who run around talking about how much money they have are typically losers. You probably suffer from short mans complex or even worse, the dreaded “Dicky Do” disease. What is the Dicky Do disease you might ask?? Your belly sticks out farther than your Dicky Do. I have played in these events all over the city and thought it was very well run. The greens were slow but soft which would allow for low scoring. If our pro would have shown up we would have had a chance!

    Memo to Vaughn: I agree that Al Freeman has done a lot for this area and the golf tournaments. It is great to have a site we can count on for the most updated information. Also, if you need advice on how to pick up girls let me know. I continually hear from reliable sources that you keep striking out with employees from Chippewa that you went to school with.
    You also spoke of playing for big money? Mike and I offered to play against you and Steve and never got a response. We couldn’t believe that players of your caliber would duck players like us.

    Have a great winter hillbillies!! Look forward to a great 2010

  9. Avatar
    November 19, 2009


    You really think using 18 high school kids are a better option than another group paired with them ? If you didn’t question the group on the drop and you didn’t call the guy out for flipping his coin 10-12 feet closer to the hole how can you expect a High school kid to do it ? Also, under your plan, who exactly is going to be watching what happens in the rough ? Guess we need to add another 18 kids.

  10. Avatar
    November 19, 2009

    To Vaughn-I love it. I think you nailed it.

    To the “math challanged”- they paid the top 5 teams. 5 teams, 4 players each team = 20 players. 20 out of 80 players is 25%, just to be correct.

    I would say let this damn topic die already, but its just to funny…

  11. Avatar
    November 19, 2009

    Hey…. You are mad. The contraction is “you’re” mad. (You are) Your is possessive, as in “your ass”. You’re enjoying the garbage served up on this page because it’s (it is) fun to pick on the crazy old guy. But be forewarned. 57 is not old. Old is a state of mind, as in accepting the status quo when there is way to improve it. Cheating in this game takes all forms. Usually it’s moving the ball “a little” farther than one club length. Or improving one’s lie in summer rules. The classic is the “here’s my ball over here”, after looking through 6 foot deep bushswani grass, it’s on a tee with a clear angle to the green! How many people do you know that mark right up under the ball, actually goosing it forward before placing the coin. In replacing the ball, it ends up an inch closer to the hole. I had a “pro” bend down to mark his ball 35 feet from the hole and tiddly wink his coin 10-12 feet closer. The only reason I saw it was because he used a quarter instead of a penny, and I saw the flash in the sun from 100 yards back. When I got to the green I told him to use a penny next time, and he turned 5 shades of crimson. Unfortunately cheating has been a part of golf since it’s inception, and I know enough of you guys to know you’re some of the most honest players in the game. You have to be to achieve the levels of play at which you are playing. Unfortunately, it only takes a few guys to ruin the contest. And with big money games, the chances of cheating go up. Too many people think cheating and lying are part of the fabric of life. You get what you deserve through hard work, honesty, perseverance, and God’s will. There are people who make it through life on the dark side. And we need to address their participation in our events to make playing fun and free of angst. Whether you want to bite the scorekeeper bullet or not, the time is here. 18 high school or college kids, boy or girl, 7 hours at $7/hour, plus a 18 hole pass from the course, is approx. $900. Out of $8000, equals 11% of the purse. Since only 12/80 cashed (15%), who wouldn’t give up that percentage? Most of us wouldn’t have missed one thin dime. Only the winners are paying the lion’s share. And how often have you been there? It would “build in” growth potential as some of those scorekeepers would become participants in the future. It’s exactly how bowling built it’s future in the 50’s and 60’s. When the school leagues and youth leagues stopped in the 70’s, bowling began to die with no feeder system for the adult leagues. (Of course other factors contributed! 25 cents to $2.50/game. And the noise and the smoke… my grandfather called the sport plebeian) Some wonderful golf factory (like Windmill Lakes) is going to figure out how to set up a scorekeeper group, teach them how to do it, and run as many scrambles as they want each year because people will flock to them. I’m sure a resort course will eventually put in cameras, and you’ll be able to watch the winners on video while the dinner and party rolls. The future of scrambles. It’s not as easy as doin’ eggs, but at least all the eggs will be “good eggs”.

  12. Avatar
    November 18, 2009

    Since you are trying to describe all of us based on how we post our comments on the blog, allow me to gather my assumptions about you.
    1. You said you played golf in the 70s for money…your a senile old man
    2. You said you played with a gun in your bag…your a gangsta! (Actually pretty cool I used to be a gangsta in high school but not the kind with guns I just used to wear my hat crooked)
    3. You saw someone cheat and didn’t say anything…your a cheating accomplice
    4. You saw someone cheat and didn’t say anything…your a coward
    5. Your mad they served hot dogs when there could be jews there….your anti bernie madof
    6. You think we take yellow school buses in college…your an idiot
    So assuming I’m as smart as you I’ve gathered that you are a senile old gangsta cheating coward who’s an idiot that got screwed by madof? hmmm sounds pretty accurate to me? Anyone else agree?

  13. Avatar
    November 18, 2009

    This is going no where fast at this point. Masso you brought up one thing in your initial post about cheating.
    “I know of a couple of cheaters already, and 2 of them were out there Sunday. I watched them one day on Chippewa #12 par three hit short, chip 10 feet short, miss the putt for a score of 4, and they turned in a 2!!! They won going away, and we lost by 5 or 6 so we just went home and we kept it to ourselves. ”
    Im guessing this is Monday night league? really does not matter when or where, WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    You have to put a stop to that. By not doing so your guilty as well, to a much lesser degree, still you could of stopped it. I have argued with people on where their ball crossed the hazard, made players go back and play a lost ball instead of playing the ball as if it went into a hazard, reports a couple people for moving ball in rough. I come off looking like a jerk some times, I do it for everyone else in the field because I expect everyone else to do it for me. Dude I am really troubled by your statement there, If that happened on Monday night league Please talk to Kevin and get those two removed from our league. At Least Kevin can make sure they are not grouped with the other 2 clowns in that group that attested to the 4 that was a 2.

  14. Avatar
    November 18, 2009

    Very entertaining I must say. Don’t know but is Masso Winkler related to the Fonz. Did he have Potsey, Ralph Malph and Richie Cunningham on his team. Masso ,you seem like the ultimate crybaby. Allan, luv you buddy….keep up the good work. Never played with Tim Ailes or Vaughn Snyder (love the name, he should be in the movies) but heard they are longer than train smoke. Nick P.- I’ll talk to you soon. By the way, Triv and I shot 12 under one time in 2man scramble, beat the field by 6 shots and no one accused us of cheating. Thats because the Fonz was in reruns.

  15. Avatar
    November 18, 2009

    Need we say more…

  16. Avatar
    November 18, 2009

    Hey, they could have moved the ball before Nick got over there. Who cares? Nick was a gentleman, and I’m sure he’s a good representative of the game. We all went on the website, and the guys all fit the pics. They didn’t win anything anyway. Moot point. I’ll call you Nick about our issue with your group. I am sure we didn’t “expect” to win out there. My one partner just inherited another 7 figures!, (he paid 6 figures in tax), the other owns ACES in North Ridgeville, doing $20,000/night on a good night. Yes you read that number right. My 3rd player is one of the top road engineers in Ohio, and clears 6 figures, lives on the lake in Avon Lake, and has 6 kids! I plead nolo contendere. I am tired of these pro bono cases where I argue for hours and some morons with a 5th grade thought process make the decision. If you can’t see the problems inherent in the current setup, you can’t fix them. I hope the powers that be fix the scrambles so that they might be enjoyed by more players, and provide some degree of satisfaction for the money spent. $165 gets 2+ weeks membership at Greyhawk for unlimited golf and cart and range. $2750/year! There are many deals like that out there in this marketplace. Blue Heron has a similar deal. They’re all starving for your affection. Windmill Lakes wants to take $3000 on a Sunday in November, and tell you they’re losing money! How much do you make when it’s snowing? $3000 is a HUGE take on a Sunday in November. You only get one chance to make a first impression. A lot of guys won’t be back. That was a bad joke for $660. Oglebay has deals for golf and lodging that approach what we paid. I can get a week at Greneleaf outside Orlando for $700, unlimited golf, lodging with kitchens. I need to give it to guys who would cheat me for $20 or $40! Bye bye, Windmill! Here’s tilting at you!

    (Tilting at windmills is an English idiom which means attacking imaginary enemies, or fighting unwinnable or futile battles. The word “”tilt”, in this context, comes from jousting.

    The phrase originated in the novel Don Quixote, by Miguel de Cervantes. The phrase is sometimes used to describe confrontations where adversaries are incorrectly perceived, or courses of action that are based on misinterpreted or misapplied heroic, romantic, or idealistic justifications. That’s you guys! Incorrectly perceived adversaries! Me. I only want to improve the lot of golf. You want to tilt at Windmills. Good luck, y’all. Have a safe winter, and I hope it’s green all winter. Your buddy…. masso

    In the novel, Don Quixote fights windmills that he imagines to be giants. Quixote sees the windmill blades as the giant’s arms, for instance.
    [Thanks to Wikipedia for this definition of “tilting at windmills”]

  17. Avatar
    November 18, 2009

    Masso, lets get something clear, I am not attacking you-Im attacking your math, again. Even if you paid $660, which I highly doubt you did, which is my opinion and I am entitled to that, you did not get ripped off $40. Everyone else paid $640, so therefore it only would have been $20. Again, you are attacking everyone on here for disagreeing with you. If you have been “cheated for more”, dont you think that you should be more careful? You keep pointing out everyone else’s faults, it is simple math. Figure it out. Once again, like math, telling time must be difficult for some as well. It was not a 7 hour round, we played in under 6. Is that a long time, yes, but you are blasting people for their inaccuracies, while you have plenty of your own.
    These games will not die, they will actually strengthen. 2 brand new games were started this fall and were run so well by the golf courses, that they will be even bigger next year, and much better off without certain people.
    You are obviously very salty that your team didnt win. I am guessing that you were expecting to win the money and when you didnt, you resort to this. 3rd grade- play ground tactics of “he cheated, I saw it, well sort of, I mean, they probably cheated…”
    Last topic, you flat out accused a PGA Professional, Nick Paez of being unprofessional and cheating by bringing 3 “pros” You had proof. You went to GOLFTec’s website and looked it up. You were called out by Nick and were wrong. And without surprise, you didn’t fess up and admit it. You went on to attack others.
    Good luck to you Masso, I hope you can find the joy in the GAME of golf, as everyone else does. Golf is just that, it is a game that we all love and love to play. For your sake, I hope you can find that again, it makes life so much more enjoyable.

  18. Avatar
    November 17, 2009

    I was always told that serious golfers in general were bums and fools, and the majority of these comments prove my grandfather correct. Why would you work for the country club when you can join the country club? There are a few of you that are so ridiculously twisted I have to address your comments individually. Kent addresses the argument and hits it right on the head. Well written without any personal attacks. Thank-you for contribution. I agree. Hitting the ball in from wedge range all day would make quite a difference. David Bean. What a work of art you are. I could care less if Tiger Woods plays. Really. Nobody certainly wants to hear from anyone who wasn’t even there! Instead of just spewing at the mouth, try to read what I wrote. As far not having balls, try and class up your pathetic act. We would have known if you were there. You would’ve been in the 12 year-old car, if only you could have borrowed the money to enter. Until you grow up and act like a man, nobody wants you anywhere, anytime. Hey Vaughn. Without Al the game what? Do you really believe these insignificant contests have anything to do with golf in Northern Ohio. My goodness, you are so far out of the loop you’re in danger of not making it back. Your student loans? I thought the little yellow buses were free, as well as the eduction you got. Seriously, grow up and buy a house, have some children, and come back and listen to the carping and bull shit coming from your group. It is pathetic. The level of reply is about 8th grade. Really. Junior High students attack personalities instead of addressing the issues. The majority of the players in these events are fringe elements in society, having little property, wealth, knowledge or class. The attacks in this space are living proof. We paid $660 at the counter, and the “pro” just took our money and said thank-you. We said “$660, right?” And he just smiled and raked it in. We were told the entry was $145 plus $20 for skins. No problem. I’ve been cheated for more. But I offer this as part of the problem of your “wonderful” events. No class, no etiquette, no friendship. Just a snake pit, like the majority of the idiots that have attacked me here. Most of what you have written about was written by the idiots personally attacking me, not by anything I raised or questioned. If no one wants to hear from me, why is the subject so passionately responded to? My concern for the game taking 7 hours is a legitimate concern. It is one of the greatest threats to golf today. It has to be fixed or the game won’t grow. It will be fixed. Cheating, whether or not you wish to believe it or not, is pandemic within the game. Calcutta’s have been scrapped, scrambles canceled, club to club events canceled, players banned from club competition, and handicaps questioned at all levels of the game. I didn’t say anyone cheated on Sunday (except the gentlemen in our competitors foursome who chose to move their approach shot 10-15 feet) I said the possibility existed because of the apparent difficulty of the setup. After a couple of guys were nice enough to take their time to explain the eagle and the round in detail, I had all I needed to know the results were legitimate. All I questioned was the possibility of -18 under, and a couple of players were sincere enough to explain the round. The eagle makes sense too. I got on the food after 3 of us got sick from it. Not funny. But I’m sure someone will write how happy they were we got sick. The level of your thinking is becoming predictable. No, I won’t be back to Windmill Lakes. The layout is overrated, the help are thieves, and the food has been addressed. Thanks Al for providing this format. We wouldn’t have known the level of thinking without these comments. Al, you keep up the good work. They”ll be little or no action soon. Nobody wants to contribute to “nothing”. That’s all I got out of Sunday. Nothing. And I continue to get nothing as I read these inane comments. Most of you really shouldn’t write as you expose your incredible lack of education and ability to refrain from personal attacks. David, I raised the possibility of cheating to get the eyewitness accounts of what transpired. My entire team thought the round was incredulous. I didn’t say somebody cheated. I said the possibility existed. Get your facts straight before you run down to the hardware store to get some hanging rope. My goodness you all squeal like little girls. I hope the goddamn event was perfect for you. I hope and pray, like the movie Groundhog Day, every year some other player and his unconscious team comes in and shoots 3 shots better than the areas best. I hope it takes 7 hours, you get cheated at the counter for 40 bucks, get served more canned chili, a rotten little hot dog (no Jews out there?, ever even think of that?) on 2 day old bread, $2 bottled water, and it never ends for the rest of your lives. When I get pissed on by the course, the play, the players, and Mr North Eastern Ohio golf, I know to move on because I know it’s not raining. You fellows deserve one another. I’m sure there were many great guys out there, but the majority of you are uneducated slobs. We used you website all year Al and did find it very helpful. You should probably refrain from attacking people who raise legitimate concerns. If you really have the betterment of golf in mind, does attacking someone who writes in with some ideas really deserve your repeated sophomoric attacks? To all of you, learn to read what is written, not what you perceive is written. And rather than gang-banging blogs, read what someone writes and address those ideas individually. Golf does little to better your life. There is little or no redeeming moral value to golf. It is overrated as a game and as a lifestyle. If you play enough to think -18 was a normal undertaking, you play too much. Really. Try getting a job and make some money, raise a family, and prepare for your old age. You won’t hit it 400 for long!

  19. Avatar
    November 17, 2009

    Wow- really guys. getting beat is getting beat. I have played in every scramble format there is since 1980. I have been on the winning side over 230 times. i played when a good score in a four man was 12 or 13 under. These days if your not close to full pull- just enjoy the day. 17-18-19 under is the norm- and yes it was tough out there but conditions were perfect and I have palyed against and with members of the winning team- minus Chad Collins. They are great players in thier own right and hit it very far. 18 under was very attainable – trust me- we could have gotten there. We started on #1 and had 121 yards in and made par. we missed a 16 footer on 8. We missed a 6 footer on 18. Four bad swings on # 13 left us with 40 feet there- my guys were hitting 7- and 8 irons- 5 iron for me. I’m 48 now and they brought me as a fill in. We also were the team who hit it hole high right on # 4 – 20 foot chip we lipped out so we could have cut that skin. On # 12 I hit a cut 5 wood to 14 feet and made the putt- my contribution that day, the guys we played with chipped in there. Length- I mean ridiculous length is hard to compete with. Yes you need to get it in the hole but when you are 340 to 370 off every tee and flipping sand wedges into every par four with four guys your pretty much assured of good looks all day long. When your reaching par 5’s with irons- and usually mid irons- it’s a huge advantage. all that’s left are the par 3’s and you hope to cover 2 or 3 of those- pick up a couple of eagles and- there you go – 17-18-19 under. Our team could have gotten there. Did we- no. I’m the first to congratulate the other team and i did. Did they cheat- Hell no- they played well- posted a great score- and get a bunch of grief from lesser players. So Chad collins had nothing better to do that day- oh well. The other guys are strong and would have been in the mix with some other pro. We shot 15 under with my old crappy butt and appreciate that they brought me along for the ride- or you may have had 2 18 unders to bitch about, and yes- even I could reach the 2 shortened par 4’s. We were over on # 7 and 2 iron to 20 feet on #13 for eagle on the other. It was a fun tournament- a great course- so enjoy the competion. We also had a 35 footer for eagle on # 16- the other par 5 and missed it. Some days the team that putts great and makes every 20 – 30 footer they look at wins- but that is a rare day. I just wish these guys took me to every scramble so I could gravey train it- but happy I was there. Could your team shoot 16-17-18 if the longest shot in on a par four was 121- and all the rest were 40- 90 yards. I bet you would say yes. I congratulate the other team- there was no cheating- for gods sakes we played 8 somes- and next time I hope you stiff all those 130 to 180 yarders- and make all your putts. then we can bitch about you!!! The MITT

  20. Avatar
    November 17, 2009


    Im just an outsider looking in, but it sounds like you might just be a sore loser! If this was an issue why didn’t you say what you felt that day?? It takes a special kind of person to call someone out via a blog. Someone referred to ‘The Pot Builders’ i take it that was your team? And so what if Chad played? The rules were one PRO. Maybe he didn’t have anything to do that day. Masso just bring a better team or stay home and play with your gun.. At least have the guts to confront the team or teams that you feel cheated in person or maybe just maybe keep your mouth shut!!!! Nobody wants to hear any comments from a sore loser!! One more thing, playing 8 somes is kinda like having a score keeper don’t you think?? It’s been a long year, but my CLOWN award goes to MASSO in a landslide…

  21. Avatar
    November 16, 2009


    Wow, it takes a special person to call someone out via a blog. Im just an outsider looking but isnt the reasoning for having 8 somes, kinda like having a score keeper? You (Masso) must be ‘The Pot Builders’ that someone referred to. It seems to me that you (Masso) might be a little bit of a sore loser. If you (Masso) thought someone cheated, why would’nt this be brought up at the time of the event? Maybe it’s because you don’t like confruntation? I say it’s because you (Masso) don’t have any balls!! My advise to you is play better or put a better team together! Also if you don’t like the way a tourney is run, don’t play. Because opening your mouth without any evidence just makes you (MASSO) look like an idiot!!!!

  22. Avatar
    November 15, 2009

    As usual, Vaughn put it so eliquently.

  23. Avatar
    November 15, 2009

    A little advice that I received growing up that you should heed….even and idiot who is quiet is considered wise.
    You claim to know so much and be such a “man” because you played golf with a gun in your bag. You have proved over and over how incredulously idiotic you are by making these statements as well as personal attacks on Al. Without him golf would not be what it is in northeast ohio and I feel we should all take the time to tell him thank you for taking his time to do all of this. You said you don’t care about losing the money because you have lost over 6500 in a day. Well my suggestion would be to keep doing what your doing and play me for some cash because I have student loans that you seem a perfect fit to pay off for me. Don’t run your mouth like your some big shot because you play for thousands in a round of golf. I have played for far more money than you will ever dream about and don’t say a word about it to anyone. Please goto naples and hang out with all the other people who have annointed themselves better than the rest of us and never come back

  24. Avatar
    November 15, 2009

    The team that shot 18 under did so. There was NO CHEATING PERIOD. All 4 guys on that team played good. When all 4 guys are hitting quality shots at the flag on every hole it makes it look easy. If you have not played with these guys before, Chad Collins is the #2 on NW tour this year. He was carrying a 48 inch driver that he hit well over 330 yards carry. He kept it in play 2 of every 3 times. Two other guys on their team that hit it in play every time around 290 -300. The other 3 guys in the group routinely Play with Fish and are the team to beat in just about every scramble they play in. When you play in their group it is easy to why. They have talent beyond mine and most of us. Playing from their tee shots makes Windmill play much easier. The rest of his team played extremely well. They worked for their birdies on the par 3s, couple of the par fours going deep into the putting order. They hit it close on many of the holes with wedges.

    Let’s also remember Windmill was really playing as a par 68, they converted 2 par 4s into long par 3s. 18 under was really 16 under.

    Your comment about not trusting anyone and saying everyone is a cheated is a bunch of crap as well. If you play with a group of people for a period of time, you know who the cheaters are. The people you are questioning play many scramble all over Indiana, Ohio, Michigan. I have never heard anyone question their integrity nor have I had any reason to. This is not questioning anyone’s integrity, you’re coming up with this because they did something you thought was not possible. You have no specific examples of something done wrong. Since you dont trust anyone and think everyone is a cheater, I would recommend you retire from amatuer golf. Its a better option than making a fool of your self writing this garbage.

  25. Avatar
    November 14, 2009

    Thanks for breaking it down rusty in those terms, maybe he will actually get it now. He is that guy that is never satisfied and will whine and cry about anything and everything. For the last time Masso, we didnt “pay” $640 dollars to Windmill per group, we paid $140 for 4 players, 18 w/cart. Any food on top of that is a bonus. If you pick your scrambles based on the food, Ive got a few good fundraisers for you to attend, they serve prime rib and lobster. Now, they will $250 per player, with about $5 towards skins. Will that be more sufficient for you?

    As players, we constantly want more money towards payouts. We finally get it with a few good events the last 3 or 4 weeks and there are still people constanty bitching and complaining.

    Its not hard to see what golf courses are hesitant to allow this type of format, too many headaches. Big money games are fun, but you have to realize that as good as a team that you may have, there are going to be several that are better than yours.

    Tim Davis, thank you for verifying Collins’ score, I knew that you and Armour played with them, but it wasnt my place to throw your names into the discussion.

    Enjoy the rest of this nice indian summer we are having, Im waiting for someone to announce a game for next week!

  26. Avatar
    November 14, 2009

    Masso we have been going about this all wrong. We appreciate you coming to scrambles and hope you come back next year and every year and please bring your friends. In fact, let us all know where you will be playing next year. We need potbuilders like you!
    Windmill please call Masso for all your catering needs next year as we hear he makes a mean roast beef sandwich and fresh fruit plate for well under $10.00…..check his bill though because the guy still cant add.
    For the last stinking time, $100 of your $135 entry went to the pot (80 players x 100 = $8000)
    $4000 1st Place
    $1750 T-2nd
    $1750 T-2nd
    $250 T-4th
    $250 T-4th

    Damn if that doesn’t equal $8000.

    The leftover $35 x 80 come on Masso get out your calculator with me = $2800!!!!

    $135 x 4 players = (drumroll) $540 per team

    $540 + $100 for skins……………………………………….$660 no wait hit the wrong button $640!!
    Everyone is entitled to your opinion apparently but get your facts straight. Have a nice winter and log on to in the spring.

  27. Avatar
    November 14, 2009

    Thanks Tim, Nice to have someone simply address a question rather than launch a personal attack. Just because I question the legitimacy of the round or the scores doesn’t make me anything other than questioning. We’ve now had the skin explained with two long hits and a 45 foot putt, and the -18 under verified by two eye witnesses to the event. Amazing. A really terrific round of golf. Now we need to shorten the length of play, and figure out how to get some scorers out there for future events; that is if you enjoy these contests. In southern Ohio 3 guys were prosecuted for cheating about 10 years ago after they were videoed out of the trees. They were a lawyer, an engineer, and a construction worker. If scorekeepers aren’t needed, why are they needed in baseball, football, basketball, etc. The pro tour now uses video to enforce its rules when there is a question. By employing scorekeepers we can expand the game, for those young people will grow up with their hearts in the game, making a few bucks an hour, and a raincheck or two. They will come back to play in high school, college, and into scrambles as they age, ensuring a continuing supply of players for events. Playing in foursomes with scorekeepers would allow for twice as many golfers to play in a day, a larger more profitable event for the course, the winners, and a chance to award more prizes (best nines, best par threes, pin shots, and even best dressed). The dinner afterword could be a fun event with non players for a fee. If you think this is a wet dream, and that the 7 hour debacle on Sunday is the epitome of golf in the 21st century, remember my words when the big golf factories figure it out and begin to have such events. Scramble leagues are already popular in some parts of the country, and scramble has been shown to be one of the best sides of the golfing experience. But the time factor must be addressed. I’m almost sure there’s not a lawyer amongst you save maybe Tim. Such flapping and squealing when the status quo is challenged!
    Try not to get so excited for eight Jackson’s. In case you didn’t notice, you all lost, except the lucky 16. Sixty-four loses. What fun! At least we had that marvelous sit-down dinner to warm our bellies. If I never come back, it will be the tired, dirty old clubhouse and the meal fit for a soup kitchen that would keep me away. If you want people to return, you need to give them something to remember you by. You will all remember these posts because I pushed some buttons and got Allen to shriek like a girl. Some of you were hilarious in your overreactions. It’s a comment page. I’m not persecuting the Jews or shooting little Afghan children. I am suggesting we can do something to improve the lot of the contests we all so love. Windmill, you flunked the hospitality test. We drove over 140 miles and for the long road home you served schlock. My dog eats better than we ate at your house. Shame on you taking $3200 dollars, claiming you “lost money,” and serving that assortment of Aldi specials and castoffs. At least get the pro’s wive’s to put something on worth eating, or cater it for $10/head. The coolers were disgusting. I understand the problems you’re having. They will get worse if you give nothing for $3200 collected. That’s no way to do business. Or announce in advance, “We are so cheap here at Windmill Lakes that as each foursome spends $660 we will provide you with one 10 cent hot dog, one stale bun, and an unlimited supply of Hormel chili from the can, and some lemonade in coolers off the back of the lawn tractors at the end of the round. At the turn you will buy our $2 bottles of soda and water.” I have the ability to make, wrap, and pack roast beef sandwiches with tomato and cheese, a cooler of filtered water, and some fresh fruit. I don’t need your handouts. Now we know what to expect from you. I heard it almost became a housing development a few years ago. It’ll be back to that soon if this was how you do people for $660! If it wasn’t enough to feed us, charge $5-10 more and serve it up. Ridiculous hospitality. As in NONE. Bye all. It’s been fun.

  28. Tim Davis
    November 13, 2009

    I am writing this comment to end the speculation that the Chad Collins Team must have cheated to reach the score of -18 at Windmill Lakes last Sunday. I was in the group, and kept their score. I was the one that made the statement after the round that it was a easy -18 under. They had 3 players that flew the ball 45 to 60 yards bye me. They had Ross Beal length. The 4th putter on their team putted 4 times, making 2 and missing one, and the other was a 2 putt birdie on #7. Team Collins never had 190 yards into any par 4 as was stated, example #10 they had 116 yards to the pin. Anyone who has ever played with me knows that I don’t miss much on the course. I know that it might be hard to believe someone could put up those numbers but I witness it and congratulated those 4 gentlemen on a fine round. By the way they beat us by 8 !!!!!!

  29. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    Al for Senate

    And thanks a lot to all of guys who left the brand new Pro V1’s and Nike One Tours and Bridgestone e+6 and 7s all over the place. I filled my bag on Monday morning.

  30. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    I think all of the facts are in.

    I’ve known Todd Craven for several years and the man would never, ever, EVER break even the most obscure rule without calling a penalty on himself — let alone make up a total score like Masso is claiming here.

    Further, I learned today that Tim Davis and Mike Armour played in the group that kept score for the winning team — two guys with impeccable credibility.

    So sorry, Masso, but your claims are absolutely bogus from start to finish, and to make them without even the slightest shred of evidence calls your character into question.

    If saying this means you won’t be entering any future scratch cash scrambles, I don’t think anyone else in the field — or any of the PGA pros, tournament directors or other players you falsely accused — will mind…

  31. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    First off Al your doing an awsome job. Second off the guys who shot -18 played in front of us, it was legit. Even though the course played long the greens were soft every pin was way accessible. Clearly some of you haven’t played in the bigger cash scrambles around, you have to go low now adays. I played in one last year Heath Slocum and Jeff Overton were there 20,000$ for first, they did’nt win. Quit your complaining!!! And for God sakes if you see some one cheating call them on it, thats why we played 8somes last week. Way to not protect the field Winkler.

  32. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    I gotta agree with Steve. I spent about 2 hours at Windmill on Sunday. Bought some shoes, bought a shirt, and stood behind 18 green watching most of the better players throw darts to that flag behind the bunker. I played Windmill on Monday and saw where the rest of the pins were. Gotta admit – they were tough. But with good shots – not unfair. If you don’t like to compete – don’t play. I would have been out there if I had more time and a tour player to recruit for the team. As far as the food goes – Ciprianis is definitely missed. But it’s November guys. Food rots if the weather is bad. Who wants to throw money away when you can use it to get a golf lesson Masso.

  33. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    Guys—–please stop the BS—sign of the times! people doing everything ity takes to earn a buck! if thats what this game has become then its time to walk away! I hope all of you guys are at little mountain this week end to contribute to the cause!—hey Rusty-talk a long drive with you? I have a idea for all of you guys to try-if you are defending this BS story–I am sure you are all aware of the game at Highland every week end—go out and try to pull this stuff on the gentelmen that run the train and sede what happens to you—GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!

  34. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    Yes, there was a typo, I CAN COUNT, before Winkler jumps in with some more ridiculous accusations.
    Al, thanks again for the info on the events, it is something that has been sorely missed in this area and the amateur players,(and the soon to be amateur players again) in the area thank you for it. Keep up the good work.

  35. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    I am not sure who you are but your comments are absurd. I am guessing you are the guy that left their team with 6 holes to play without saying a word. They made 3 birdies coming in with only 2 players by the way. I have three comments. 1. The GolfTEC group only had one pro in their group which was me. Bill is a steel salesman, Ryan is a Doctor, and Matt is a sophmore in highschool. 2. We chose the ball on the left rough because their was an opening in between two small trees. We placed our ball one club length directly behind the ball and not off to the side with an opening…..3. We shot 11 under and finished in the middle of the pack. Next time you should man up and make a claim while on the course. Talking about integrity and PGA Professionals why don’t you get your facts straight and actually finish your round. The scores were accurate and true. Everybody on the leaderboard are Tour Players with the exception of Rhino. These guys don’t get to where they are by cheating but because they are really good. Hole 12 wasn’t that hard.

  36. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    And the golf course lost money, revenue, by charging what they did. Several golf courses in the area were packed for the entire day and Windmill had 20 groups, 80 players, pay them 35 bucks, and that included food and drink. Deal with the fact that your team, as well as 18 other teams got beat. Whether or not Chad Collins should have played should be and is the only issue here.
    As for your pace of play issue: its not the 1970s anymore and the average round of golf for good solid players is 4 hours 30 minutes. Now make it a scramble. Playing in 8somes, playing for 4gs as the first place prize with a couple grand in skins, you are going to have 6 hour rounds.
    And I know what Winkler is going to come back with so—no, I’m not being paid by Windmill nor do I work there, I just tend to be a bit more observant than most and can’t count and do math.

  37. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    Winkler, shut up shut up shut up. First, the owners were there, they made the announcements and did the scoring. They made 35 a player. 8000 dollar pot. 135 a guy, 80 guys, 100 from each guy goes to the pot you jackass. there were also 25 a guy thrown into skins, hence the 2000 skin. What aren’t yóu getting? My group was one of the last groups in and we played in under 6 hours so quit whining about 7 hour rounds. I’m happy that you have played “with guns in your bags”, and yes I have played “all over the country”. Again, 18 under wasn’t unheard of out there, the course wasn’t that hard and either were the pins. Go to Naples and stay there, leave Al alone, with out his site, these events would go unnoticed, just like they used to in the past.

  38. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    Allen, you really are a squealing little girl. Everything I wrote pertains to the discussion. It is the discussion since you choose to try and answer each and every post. We haven’t “all played all over the country.” My claim about the -18 has yet to have a single witness to the event come forward with a post. And just because someone would come forward with a claim under a pseudonym doesn’t mean it happened. The only thorough debunking would be a video. That’s not happening. There will always be some question about the legitimacy of -18 when second is -15, and the course is set up the way Windmill was on Sunday. I could care less about getting “beat.” I didn’t get beat. I didn’t even see any golf I wish to emulate. We were out there over 7 hours. And only because you can’t trust guys to turn in an honest card? There was nothing “wild” in my accusations. I said the possibility existed, and someone out there must agree because we had to play in 8 somes. And it took 7+ hours. Allen, did I mention the round took 7+ hours? Why? Was it so much fun we just couldn’t get off the course? No, it was to “insure” honest scorekeeping. 7 hours is ridiculous, much as you are a ridiculous shill for this entire broken setup. If you don’t want anyone rattling your cage, don’t open the comment page. Then we can have the “wonderful world of Allen” once a week, and everything in Allen’s little world will be neat and predictable. I’m here to tell you Allen, the system as it exists now is broken, and if the 7 hour rounds aren’t enough proof, wait and see who shows at your next event. I envision a system that would entice the average golfers back in for some fun, make for a four hour round, and allow twice as many groups to compete. The money would be considerably more, and some corporate sponsoring would help. Sorry you see everything as “us and them.” We can work on the problem together to better the game, or you can continue to defend a broken system with no hope for growth or real enjoyment. Try not to defeat the purpose of people who wish to improve the game. The status quo isn’t working very well. Incidentally, my math shows $3200 left over after payouts, and with 80 players, that’s $40 per player. $3200 is a lot of take for Windmill. How much did the head pro get boosted into his pocket? I’ll bet the owners have no clue as to the real take. I’d be willing to bet the owners would be disappointed by the presentation as well. To drive over an hour one way for that meal is like going to Warren for a good time. It’s not likely…

  39. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    Masso, a lot of what you write here doesn’t apply to the discussion — or even make sense.

    Just because you’ve “been around” doesn’t mean your claims or statements carry more weight; sorry, we’ve all played all over the country and we’ve all seen a lot of golf.

    Your claims have been thoroughly debunked by eyewitnesses — so it’s time to let it go. The winners did not cheat, your math on Windmill’s greens fee take was incorrect, and there were two teams in every group so scorers were not needed.

    Your complaints are taking on the look of sour grapes for getting beat.

    Windmill Lakes hasn’t paid me or Northeast Ohio Golf one dime, so yet another of your baseless claims is proven false.

    If your intent was to “improve” future events by making wild accusations (online four days after the fact!) based on nothing more than some personal hunches, you need to rethink how you might be helping the game…

  40. Avatar
    November 13, 2009

    We achieved one objective. We got an eye witness account of the eagle. On in two there and a 45 foot putt is worthy. That hole played long. I still haven’t heard anything from the group that played with the -18 under group, other than vague references to an “easy 52” being bantered around the bar. I’ve lost as much as $6500 playing one round in the 1980’s, so gambling isn’t the reason for my discontent. $165 for the day isn’t even gambling. It’s $800 for a round at Pebble, and Trump’s new course is close. But I’ve seen a lot of crap going on recently, and it’s time it was addressed. I can name some well known scramblers around the area who are giving the game and the contests a bad name. Most of the men there on Sunday I’m sure are great guys, and love the integrity of the game as much as I do. Chances are, everything went smoothly and without incident. But remember yesterday when you have the same scramble next year and 12 teams show up. Isaac Hayes, smoke some more dope. You’re not even funny. Rusty, you’re just a confused young man with bad math and a shortness complex. My doubt comes in the form of an “easy 52.” No such thing. And I have seen a lot. There had to be some 20-40 ft putts made to score that number. Long drives don’t win tournaments. Putting does. I still have my doubts that they shot -18 with that setup. But I’m sure not gonna lose any sleep over it. My math says they charged $40 each for the cart and golf. High schoolers could have kept score with $5/hr and an 18 raincheck provided by Windmill. It would have cost $540 out of the pot, and the course makes money with rainchecks, because they bring in other players.I have played in professional tournaments all over the Eastern USA. I have witnessed 500 yard drives, double eagles, holes-in-one, 22 under for 18, 12 under for 9, cross-handed players hitting the ball 400 yards, and men chipping to trees for $5000! I have seen a private match at Oakmont CC for $1 million, and witnessed a guy hit with a 4 iron in the head for playing through. (The attack put the victim in the hospital for 6 weeks, and the perp in jail for 4 years). I’ve seen 3 guns pulled by 3 different guys on one green (Don’t “go to the bag!”) and played with men where everyone had a gun in their bag, including yours truly. The 70’s were a little different… It’s time for scorekeepers, and the first in will get the consistent scramble players. Otherwise, it is doomed to failure. Allen, you squeal like a little girl. How much is the Windmill account worth to you? You’re so one-sided in this debate you’re like a broken record. My only concern is bettering the events. More money, better food, honest scorekeeping, more friendship and some fun after the event. And add to that something a lot faster than a 7 HOUR ROUND. Ridiculous to put up with that simply because one group has to watch another. If everyone’s so honest, why can’t we play in foursomes? I would, and you’d have my score exactly right. Apparently there’s a problem, because we have to tie up the entire course from first light to dark so the scores are “witnessed.” There is a better way, I am sure! Bye. And have a nice winter. I’ll be in Naples for 3 months, playing Windstar, Hole-In-Wall and Royal Palms. Enjoy your winter, and try to find some nice things to say about golf. I only wish to improve its shady side. The men showing up at these events are not icons of business and society. Even the pros look like thieves. You need something to improve the image. I know. I won’t be there anymore, so maybe that will improve the image in your narrow little world. It grows smaller by the day fellows. Not many people will put up with the garbage perpetrated on us on Sunday. And why were we allowed to use any ball at the last minute? Nobody ever explained that one. The only conceivable reason is so some long drive thugs could hit illegal balls. There is no other reason to suspend that rule. Thanks Herb for your rules edification.

  41. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Henry Winkler the first thing you need to address is your glaring lack of ball speed (your ball speed should never be lower than your words per minute on a typewriter). Secondly, have your mom drop you off a little earlier so you can properly warm up. PS. I love her new station wagon.

  42. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Sorry, Rob, I can’t see how it’s an unfair advantage to play with a pro if the event is clearly billed as “1-pro/3-ams”.

    Any team can recruit their pro, too.

    There are scrambles that are amateurs only, there are scrambles that are pro-ams, and there are handicapped scramble events. If the team you enter matches the rules outlined, it’s fair — even if your pro is Tiger.

    So if one team with a pro drubs another team without one, that doesn’t mean the losing team gets to level a no-fact accusation of cheating.

    Personally, I’ve played on scramble teams where we’ve had a great pro and lost. And I’ve played on scramble teams with all ams and we’ve won by 2-3 shots. That’s just golf.

    Don’t blame the format, don’t accuse the winners of cheating — just play better! (And maybe recruit better, too.)

  43. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    After reading these comments all I can say is WOW. I personally have witnessed guys cheating in a meaningless scramble when my foursome had to wait on every shot and was able to watch them shoot 8 under but post 14. It has always been my opinion that pro’s should not be allowed in these type of golf scrambles. I realize by making this statement that I’m gonna get some flack but its what I believe. And allowing guys that play golf for a living on tour is completely wrong. I think this would help to level the field by doing this. We all want to win, but when a team gets an unfair advantage over the other teams, you end up with what we have here, accusations of cheating.

  44. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Amen Rusty. Rule of thumb on the big cash scrambles in Northeast Ohio: don’t bring a knife to a gunfight.

    If your team can’t shoot at least 18-under par on a warm day with standard pins, your team won’t win.

    Need proof? Go back into the archives on this website and look at the results posted every spring and every fall…

  45. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Steve thanks for your comments. Masso needs a reality check when it comes to scrambles. This is not Wed. night Elks league, these guys play a ton of scrambles. It takes 15 to 18 under to win these things all the time in 4 man scrambles. Marysville CC had one last week and three teams shot 16 under and you needed a total of 20 handicap to play! By the way you get a crappy ham sandwich and some soup out of a can at that one AND you have to take some of the money in gift certificates. As far as the price, $25 for golf and $10 for food was more than fair.
    My buddies played with the team that shot 18 under and they shot like 8 under….guess they didn’t cheat. The team we played with was PAST pin high on #4…they also had a long drive guy on their team.
    Finally, the no one ball rule, tapping down spike marks, rangefinders, etc are put into the rules so no one can get an advantage. And, if someone took a bad drop in your group and you didn’t call it then shame on you.
    Get your facts straight before you make accusations and also get a calculator, some lessons, and maybe hit the gym before you come back (or at least talk a long drive guy to play with you)

  46. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    The pins werent that tough with the exception of #12 and even there, hitting it to 20 feet wasnt that tough. And eagles on #7 and #13? They were 275 and 247 to the pin, I mean half the field hit driver over the green on #7 and 3 wood was all that was need on#13. The group we were playing with, same guy that bombs the ball, hit a freaking 4 iron on #13 to 8 feet.

    I just hate when people cant deal with being beat, even if it is by a PGA Tour player… Just think, when you see Chad Collins on tour next year, we are all his sponsors!

  47. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Well said, Steve.

    If LeBron shows up at your rec league basketball game, it would be pretty silly to say his team won’t win by 40. Winning by three shots in a scramble with a battle-tested pro is about the same…

  48. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Ok, lets slow these accusations down. First things first, my team played with the group who eagled #4. One of their players has entered many of the “Long Drive Championships”, and the real contest, in Mesquite. The guy carried the ball 345, we lasered it once we got up there. He then proceeded to hit a hybrid on the green and they rolled in a 45 foot putt. I witnessed that with my own eyes, and I know that Im not going to be called a cheater.

    Second, while I find it funny and a little sad that Chad Collins found it necessary to play in the scramble, -18 under was doable if you have a PGA Tour player in your group. It is what it is. I personally know the group that they were playing with and there is no chance in hell that they were going to cheat, no way no how.

    As far as score keepers, that is why we played in 8 somes. If Masso was playing with a group that moved the ball “10-12” yards, then it is on Masso for not calling them out and waiting until this forum to say something. There is a reason that we exchanged cards and signed and attested them. If Masso’s group signed their playing competitors, then Masso’s group “cheated.”

    Lets face it, any time you put up $4,000, you are going to get ringers. I do have to say that this is the first time I have seen multiple PGA Tour players (Jon Mills was also there) , but you know this going in.

    As far as your figures, it was $135 a guy, with $100 going towards the purse and $35 going to the course. It was 60 degrees and their wasnt a cloud in the sky and windmill got 80 guys to pay $35, they actually lost money. So lets not bitch about that.

    I have to say that I also find it quite offensive to start degrading the PGA profession. I would like to know who else played on “GolfTec’s” team. I know the staff and only saw one player there, I may be wrong, but I doubt they had 3 pros. Please email me privately if you wish with those names.

    Anyways, to sum things up, playing in 8somes took care of “cheating”. If you have scorekeepers on every hole, you now need to pay 18 more people to sit on the golf course for 6 hours. Now we are raising the entry fee by $10 per player and there are those complaining that $35 was too much.

    Lets make sure our facts our straight before we start throwing around “rumors” that can damage a persons reputation. Im sorry your team didnt play well, but hence the gambling portion of scrambles. Something tells me that all these players showed up “voluntarily” and none were forced!

  49. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    A claim of a rules infraction should only be made when a person directly observes a player or team violating the posted rules. The person who sees it brings the infraction to the attention of the player who committed it, and the player or team calls the penalty on themselves.

    If it’s not resolved between the players in this way, then the committee must “referee”.

    What’s NOT reasonable is to see a posted final score (or a posted hole-out) on the board and claim “cheating” based on the fact that you think the score is too low for the day.

    If a team had more than 1 pro in their group, then that fact should have been brought to the committee’s attention ASAP. That’s a black-and-white rules infraction and should have been mentioned at once, to allow the committee the chance to review, discuss and disqualify the team if that fact is correct.

    But to make an accusation four days after the fact on a golf website is not the way to ensure the quality of future events. The best way to protect the field and the game of golf is to handle it at the event directly with the people involved and in charge!

    The event was played in groups of 8 (two 4-player teams in each grouping), so the idea you’ve floated that 8 players will all lie for a few hundred bucks is something I do not believe…

  50. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    I cannot come right out and accuse people of cheating—but it seem’s a little odd to post that score under the conditions—but I can say the major problem with the event is the fact that it clearly stated in the entry form 1 pro-3 ams. There were teams in the event with 2 or three pros and certainly I think that they would not have 20 teams if the players had known that PGA tour players were in the field?The event was slated as a scramble not swindle or scandle!

  51. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    I didn’t say there was “a lot of cheating.” Only $6,000 worth! First place and the impossible skin. Ball in the hand in the hole for $2000, -18 under for another $6000. Who were the other two players on the winning team? Were they pros as well? Did the two groups play together? If you played out there on Sunday and didn’t find -18 the “round of the year” you weren’t paying attention. Just the break to -15 is amazing. Hey good for them. But we won’t ever return to Windmill Lakes for any event without scorekeepers! And that goes for a lot of other courses too. It’s too much money to throw in the dumpster for a few cheating s.o.b.’s. Granted, most players are honest, and I believe in the honesty and the integrity of most people, but I lock my doors, have ADT on my house, and don’t share my checking account with anyone either. You have a vested interest in the game, and will have a hard time seeing beyond the next tournament. But that circus round Sunday changed the landscape in Northern Ohio, and you’ll find the pickings a lot slimmer next year without some changes in the setup! I am not speaking alone, and have talked with a number of players since Sunday. If Sunday’s event was so damn honest, why were there multiple-pro groups, and why was the one ball rule thrown out on the first tee? Why were groups driving around re-pairing themselves on the first tee? I am only wishing for more events, not less. But the setup must be changed, and the beneficiary must be a charity as well. Windmill Lakes charged heavy for a November outing, and showed it’s true colors with the schlock it served for food and drink. $13,200 in, $9600 paid out, $3600 for golf, one hot dog, a day old bun, chili and a lemonade in a plastic bucket for 80 guys? That’s $45 a man… that’s a record take for November 9th! And the pro shop proceeds I’m sure paid the electric bill. The food was “D” Windmill. Really insulting for the distance traveled, money spent, and a 7 hour round! Sorry if it hurts, but the truth be spoken! You can’t forever pee on people and just tell them it’s raining….

  52. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Bryan: Pine Hills was an “extreme” 2-man scramble with pins intentionally cut a step from the edge of every green on the biggest off-the-edge-downslopes they could find. (I think the contours of Windmill’s greens and Pine Hills’ greens are identical.) So the final scores between the two events is apples-to-oranges.

    A great score does not equal cheating…

  53. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Sorry, I can’t say I agree with you in your statement about “the majority”.

    I believe the majority of players do NOT feel there is a lot of cheating in local tournament golf. Quite the contrary; I believe the majority of players feel others are honest.

    Nor do I think cash games “open a can of worms” that lead to cheating just because they are for cash. I’ve heard cheating accusations leveled in some of lowest-level tournaments you can imagine.

    Scorers help with the perception of honesty, but candidly I’ve seen many a scorer who has no idea what’s going on around them.

    People who gravitate to golf are honorable by nature. That’s what I believe. As such, accusations of cheating should be direct, candid, respectful and “to the face” of those involved. That’s how the integrity of the game — regardless of prizes or not — stays in place.

    When I hear cheating accusations, I typically take them with a grain of salt — especially when no on in the field calls out the person or team on the perceived infraction right there and then…

  54. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    I agree with masso. The whole day was surreal. I would agree with that round. We had a hard time stopping chip shots from 1o yard off the green to get within 10 feet of the cup!!! let alone stopping a 4-Iron from 190 yards away. That coarse played over 6900 yards–and with those pin placements??????? The week before a two man scramble at Pine Hills was won with 5 under—Windmill has 10 times more difficult greens than pine Hills —go figure. But listen Masso –you have to agree for $200.00 you got a hell of a meal between nines!!! A Wallmart hot dog–with a quarter cup of Hormel soup and all the ice tea you could drink out of a old plastic cooler that looked like they pulled it out of the lake—I dont know about you –but I can’t wait for next year!!!

  55. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Hey Allen, Thanks for commenting… I am not jaded nor do I hold it against anybody for what they do. Human nature is what it is. I LOVE the game for all it’s worth. But for the process to work, we must pay willing people to keep score and watch for infractions in “golf for money” situations. It’s amazing how accurate the profession was even 80 years ago outlawing calcutta’s and the like at clubs, and not allowing PGA cardholders to promote gambling events. The can of worms it opens will be akin to the casinos opening in Ohio…drugs, whores, and con artists will proliferate. To do this right, we need to set up a scorekeepers group much as umpires are used in softball, paid by the tournament in fees and free golf. Only then will the majority of golfers feel “uncheated” in play. I will be running at least 2 tuournaments next year; one pro, one ball, with scorekeepers and the Shriners for Children as beneficiary. The payouts will be substantial, and cheaters will be tossed. I’ll be in touch in the spring for help in making these events fun and worthwhile… mw

  56. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    Wow. This is quite an accusation. But candidly, it’s in the wrong forum. You have to have the guts to speak up at the event. If I personally saw guys cheating and could state the specific situation, I would certainly discuss it with the tournment director — and expect to state it again directly to the players involved.

    I agree that cheating would be the death of no-scorer money scrambles.

    I also say I’m a big proponent of events where teams play together (in 2 or 3-player teams).

    And I agree that anytime you have big cash on the line and 4-player teams, you really should have scorers/spotters. It eliminates all of this type of activity — and debate…

  57. Avatar
    November 12, 2009

    I hate to rain on the party, but TIger, Phil, and any two wouldn’t have shot -18 Sunday. The pins were behind every bunker, the greens were good but not totally consistent, and the one ball rule was trashed on the first tee… why? I heard someone say it was an easy 52! My ass. 10, 12, 14, 18, 1, 5, and 6 were not gimme holes. Somebody holed out on 4? Really? There are so many cheaters out there now I don’t trust anyone anymore. We played with 4 guys from Golftec, and when I get home and pull up their website, 3 of them are PGA pros! They played well and shot -12! But the rules said 1 pro. And why no one ball rule? The only people to benefit from changing that would be cheaters who carry illegal balls with them. I didn’t have time to run down and buy some Robin Hoods on a moment’s notice! There were multiple eagles on 7 and 13? Multiple birdies on 12? Impossible! 12 played 215 into the wind with the pin on a mound behind the bunker. Without scorekeepers I am finished with scrambles in this area. Too many guys cheating. I know of a couple of cheaters already, and 2 of them were out there Sunday. I watched them one day on Chippewa #12 par three hit short, chip 10 feet short, miss the putt for a score of 4, and they turned in a 2!!! They won going away, and we lost by 5 or 6 so we just went home and we kept it to ourselves. On Sunday, our opponents hit it off the path left on 14, gained 40 yards, but were behind a 12 foot maple, 140 out. Their other ball was 165 or so on the right side of the fairway. Much to our surprise they took the ball left behind the tree. But after we played from the middle, 160 out, we turned around and they had moved the ball 10-12 feet toward the fairway for an open shot in the rough. PGA pros with all the class of a rat. If you can’t trust pros, what is the game coming to? We unanimously agreed we will not play again in any scrambles without scorekeepers to guard against cheating. If I want to give away $200, I’ll give it to the city mission where it’ll feed some homeless rather than some deadbeat cheating golfers. There is a problem in the game today, and if it isn’t addressed and fixed the whole rotten stack of cards is in trouble. Golf is not immune to the problems of credibility. If you lose the fringe players now, the game will go the way of racquetball and tennis in short order. Everytime you cheat in golf, it only hurts your own integrity and sense of well being. Get caught cheating for enough, and I don’t want your problems….

  58. Avatar
    November 10, 2009


    Is that Chad Collins the same guy from the Nationwide Tour? #2 on the money list. Unreal if that’s him. Maybe I can call Phil Mickelson to play at Little Mountain with me and Chris Helaney.

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